"Spain is a world leader for the commitment of its local communities."

The tragedy of nature is that it doesn't follow four-year electoral cycles, so politicians succumb to the short term. This doesn't happen in Spain, where changes in government don't affect nature protection policy, at least with regard to biosphere reserves under the Man and Biosphere (MaB) program, which provides networks for collaboration and the exchange of knowledge and experiences. This is the case in our country, "thanks to the commitment of the communities that inhabit the reserves," according to Antonio Abreu, director of UNESCO's Division of Ecological and Earth Sciences, who chaired the fourth meeting of Mediterranean Biosphere Reserve managers (MedMaB) network of the International Centre for Mediterranean Biosphere Reserves (UNESCOMED) at Castellet Castle (Barcelona), designated as a Category II Centre (C2C) under the auspices of UNESCO in collaboration with the Abertis Foundation.

—UNESCO is turning 80, and it seems that the international structure the world established after World War II is now changing. What is the current status of multilateralism?

Eighty years is a very young age for a human creation, but it remains a fundamental pillar of multilateralism. We must become aware that we are living in a time of true structural change, where global challenges demand even more agile and committed cooperation. The international structure needs to adapt, not discard what we have built, seeking working mechanisms that can adapt to the reality of acceleration and total complexity we are experiencing, and with the same objective of cooperation and peace. But the times we live in and what is happening are tremendously complex. The greatest challenge for UNESCO is to adapt to a world in which everything is mixed, because when we talk about biodiversity we also talk about employment, when this was not the case before. An integrated, inclusive, and polycentric approach is needed.

—What social dimension does the environment have in the midst of several wars, joined by a trade war? Are we trading the present for the future?

—Today, available scientific knowledge tells us that the environmental dimension is a pillar of socioeconomic development, especially in conflict situations. The loss of environmental quality fuels inequalities and social tensions through feedback loops. We cannot sacrifice the future for short-term decisions that fail to consider the environmental dimension. We need a minimum amount of nature without which we cannot plan any type of development. On the Moon, we can think about economic development because there are strategic resources, but social development will never be possible, not because of a lack of oxygen—because it can be manufactured—but because there isn't enough nature. The priority is to save lives in the face of wars and catastrophes, but at the same time, we must ensure the conditions for ecological restoration, including for aspects of social identity, because the landscape is part of the history and identity of communities.

—What challenges do you hope to achieve at the Fifth World Congress of Biosphere Reserves, to be held in September 2025 in China?

—The congress is held every ten years, and we aspire to strengthen the role of biosphere reserves as territories with people, because there are 300 million people living in all the reserves around the world, as models of sustainability, in addition to expanding international cooperation and strengthening commitments to climate and biodiversity. The climate is clear, but biodiversity is more diffuse for politicians, and that's why it seems like the poor relation. What will be approved is the new action plan for the next ten years. Participating in this summit are people who are already on the ground and who already have jobs and don't need to sign other political commitments because they already signed them when the member states proposed submitting a biosphere reserve nomination. The goal is to develop and strengthen cooperation in their future work and how they will apply more scientific and traditional knowledge to reinforce the demonstration that we can coexist and progress without separating nature and development, without separating nature from people. We hope this coalition will be strengthened and that the human species will find a way to ensure peace with nature.

—What contributions do Biosphere Reserves make to climate change adaptation and mitigation?

—By definition and practice, what is guaranteed are territories converted into sustainable laboratories with resident communities. It is a commitment by political actors and private decision-makers, scientists—in short, communities—to a platform for ongoing dialogue at the local level, but also ensuring a connection with national and international development strategies. Reserves are living demonstration laboratories where solutions to mitigate climate change or ensure adaptation to its effects are tested and implemented. This is done through territorial conservation, but also through community empowerment, because it involves everyone, not just a matter for scientists, decision-makers, or protected area managers.

—Are the communities that inhabit the reserves sustainable?

—Especially in Europe, these are very rural areas or very far from major cities where efforts are being made to ensure opportunities for young people, so that they don't abandon their history and their territory in search of better living conditions. Quite the contrary, they can make these sites attractive for people to settle there and, consequently, provide more infrastructure and services to ensure a quality of life, especially in the transition zones of biosphere reserves. There are models being transferred from reserves to other sites, and that's why, for the first time, we're going to have an entire country whose entire territory will be a biosphere reserve. This is São Tomé and Príncipe, where it can be demonstrated that the reserve instrument is not only for observing nature, but also for addressing sustainable development.

—At the 2025 United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP30) in Belém, Brazil, in November, will we see whether the world is making progress or has experienced a setback toward the goals set? What do you expect from this new summit?

—All COPs are conferences of the parties, and we shouldn't approach them with disappointment. We must celebrate these times; the parties come together to discuss. This happens both at the COP on climate change and at the commission's biodiversity conference. Cali was considered the people's COP, due to the interest and greater participation of communities and non-professionals. This next COP will be important, and concrete progress is expected. There is pressure to make progress on commitments to reduce emissions, but above all, on financing and climate justice. There are countries and regions that are more vulnerable than others, and we must strive for equity. It will also be a time to evaluate climate multilateralism and how it can be a little more effective or continue to be effective. Work will continue, and that is positive.

—Is it necessary to listen more to the scientific community to truly put these challenges on political agendas and thus avoid mere cosmetics?

—We need to generate greater political commitment and ensure a more prominent role for the scientific community. We have information that has cost a lot of money to produce, but this knowledge isn't always readily available or easily accessible to decision-makers, whether families, businesses, or governments. Decisions must be translated into effective policies. Otherwise, speeches remain mere symbolic gestures.

—The MaB program was born in 1971, and now some say it should be called PaB, Person and Biosphere...

—Last July in Agadir, the potential name change was voted on after six years of interesting, rich, and positive discussion, and it was noted that there is a Eurocentric view of the West, because other cultures don't have this semantic problem. For example, in German, the word "man" means humanity. This problem doesn't exist in other languages ​​either. Worldwide, only the Western position is sensitive, but the 34 member states that make up the council decided that if we accept this change, we are saying that Western culture prevails worldwide, when there are more people outside of Europe.

—What should be done in environmental education?

—It's very important to incorporate the environmental dimension into education, but not as a supplementary topic, but rather as a central component. This is no longer done in subjects like health or democracy, which are integral parts of the entire program and not limited to a few activities.

—Let's go back to 1971, because the following year the Club of Rome published its report, "The Limits to Growth." Have we made enough progress since that public awareness?

—We've made progress in awareness and knowledge, but action has been uneven. There's a lot of work to be done and new things are emerging, because in 1971, we didn't talk about climate change, but rather about pollution, environmental degradation, and toxicity. Now, it's more difficult to ensure natural systems adapt to biodiversity. We still have time, but we urgently need to accelerate the transition to become more sustainable.

—Why is Spain the world leader in the number of biosphere reserves, accounting for 14% of its territory?

—Indeed, Spain leads the world in biosphere reserves thanks to the commitment of its local communities. The central government certainly does a very good job, and the Autonomous Agency of Natural Parks (OAPN) is one of our strategic partners. But it's the communities that recognize the value of reserves as a commitment to the future and the quality of life of their inhabitants. This is an exemplary model of participation. There's a clear sense of the importance of reserves in Spain for the communities, and this attracts local politicians, who, in turn, also attract national ones. The Spanish Recovery and Resilience Plan also includes a specific funding line for biosphere reserves, with just over €50 million, which means there's great coherence from the communities to the highest level. It's also very gratifying that even when governments change, this vision remains unchanged, and this is another indicator that it's rooted in the communities.

—With five years remaining until the 2030 Agenda is completed, what is your assessment of the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs)?

—There is progress and some results for some SDGs, but they are uneven. The agenda itself requires urgent acceleration, especially in environmental and climate issues, but also in social issues. It was conceived in 2015, when the world was completely different. I believe it can be accelerated, and I return to the concept of sustainable development in line with what a professor taught me: sustainable development is a useful utopia that will never be achieved, but it is good to move in its direction. Above all, we must stop the degradation of the natural environment because the loss of biodiversity cannot be compensated for. We must ensure that some species will not disappear because there are no others to fulfill their role in the system, and some are crucial for the balance and security of nutrient supply in rivers and soils.

—Will the number of biosphere reserves increase, when there are currently 759 in 136 countries?

—This year alone, we received the highest number of applications ever for evaluation and approval, which is a very clear indicator of the importance and recognition of the MaB program, as these are instruments that support countries not only in improving their local communities but also in fulfilling their national strategies and international commitments. We have more than 35 applications and five new countries submitting applications for the first time, from Europe, Africa, and around the world. We know that by 2030 there will be more. The MaB program, which is 50 years old, remains as attractive as jeans, which were once unused and are now fashionable if they are torn.

—Will the goal of protecting 30 percent of the territory be achieved by 2030?

—The goal is ambitious, but possible if countries commit to concrete actions and adequate funding. Today, with only 6 percent protected, the challenge is enormous but not impossible. There are countries in Europe and around the world that use and will use reserves and also parks to meet the goal of having 30 percent of their territories under some type of conservation measure. More parks can be built, but it's expensive and not necessarily effective because it sometimes generates conflicts of interest or with indigenous communities. But if you have sites like biosphere reserves, where dialogue already exists, you can also address biodiversity in transition zones and reach the 30-30 goal sooner. Portugal has already achieved 34 percent of its territory under protection. Our network is the best for ecological monitoring and restoration, because the people who are already there know what it's about, and what's done there can also be done elsewhere. And that is the complementary contribution of biosphere reserves to the erroneous dichotomy that conservation is antagonistic to development.

—Do you see the multi-million-dollar investments in Europe's digital, green, and sustainable economy being jeopardized by the push for industrial sovereignty?

—It's not a step backward, but rather an optimization because we don't have the capacity to provide all the data to plan in a very complex and fast-paced world. I see that the world is changing, and we also need to measure every decision to take steps. For example, in the energy transition to replace cars, at the current rate of exploitation, to obtain lithium, minerals would have to be extracted for 60 years with the technology we have today to replace everything that's fuel with batteries. As the useful utopia of sustainable development, we must invest in domestic energy efficiency, for example, because it's more than proven that efficiency measures save more money and energy than a complete change, because we have many homes built years ago and they need to be optimized. You can't do everything in one day. We must combine realism with commitment, and that's difficult on a human scale. And we must not be held hostage by trends in political movements or social dynamics that become extreme but are not realistic. We must be aware that we have to change, but from a realism based on dialogue and ongoing commitment, in a dynamic that is not compatible with the governance model at all levels.

—For the first time, a conscious species, the human species, is creating another species, AI…

—AI is what we want it to be. A positive example is what has been achieved on the island of Príncipe in the Gulf of Guinea. A Chinese Category 2 center, similar to UNESCOMED in Castellet, has a satellite to study the SDGs, and it's fascinating because it shares information to collect data and measure their evolution. They also have an institute with 100,000 doctorates, and they asked them from the island what they could do to address climate change. In two months, they sent them a one-meter-scale report based on all the data collected by their satellite, from the evolution of coastal dynamics to which areas are most affected by extreme elements, as well as models if there is a rainfall of a certain magnitude or a strong tide. Based on this study, they decided to relocate the hospital and the roads to avoid extreme situations. This is a success story of the MAB and the adaptation of an island that is a biosphere reserve with 6,000 people and a rich biodiversity, as well as many social and environmental problems. However, they have opted for sustainable development and tourism, rather than palm oil, thanks to the collaboration of a Chinese center with two universities.

—The UNESCO report "How to address inequalities caused by climate change? Who bears the costs?" estimates that 2.5 billion people could be exposed to extreme weather conditions by 2050 because, among other reasons, 239 million of them live in extreme poverty, with little or no chance of overcoming their precarious socioeconomic situation in increasingly threatening climate scenarios.

—This report is the result of a multidisciplinary effort. Although the situations aren't comparable and it's not very politically correct to say so, there are more exiles and social degradation caused by environmental problems in the world than by conflicts. The social impact of climate change, and the fact that biodiversity loss generates social impact and exclusion, isn't made visible or taken into account. The vulnerability index allows for policy design. And the conclusion is that we need fairer, more effective policies. The ecological transition must be inclusive, otherwise it will cease to be sustainable.

—The report also questions who should bear the costs, which is the big elephant in the room…

—That's the challenge, because no one will emerge victorious because we only have one planet, there's no Plan B, and everything is interconnected. It's a pressing need that's very visible today, not only because of human values, but also because of solidarity, especially because there are more and more of us and resources are very limited, and we can't look at things by sector. It's not an environmental, economic, or health issue; it's all at the same time. We don't have social or governance structures. When I taught classes, to illustrate the importance of the environment, I used a graph with two variables showing the evolution of the number of members of unions and some environmental organizations from 1900 to 2015, and its evolution has been inversely proportional. Today, in a democracy, the lack of social, labor, and health rights is intolerant, but in terms of the environment, awareness has been growing for a few years.